Curse

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Anguish, Earthbind, AoU, Shadowsong, and Pain are acceptable options.

That's roughly the same amount of useful skills in Channeling (SoS, Bloodsong, Splinter, Siphon, Painful Bond).

Without AoU, spirits are way too squishy.

What build are you suggesting without using Communing?

For a hero - restoration spec.

For human - 13 spawning for Agony/Splinter, GDW. You can easily go smite for SoH, Smite hex or condition and some other crap. Also with 13 spawning, you can keep up GDW on 4 players assuming you're paying attention and using SS wisely.

I don't like Anguish because its conditional, not particularly long lasting compared to other spirits, and at best, the damage equals a SoS spirit.

Earthbind is good for certain builds. Pain is inferior to shadowsong.

So really the only thing you can be certain that Communing is worth is Shadowsong and in some instances AoU. AoU on a hero is more acceptable because heroes have no sense of placement and no PvE skills.

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I don't like Anguish because its conditional, not particularly long lasting compared to other spirits, and at best, the damage equals a SoS spirit.

If Anguish, being just a normal skill, can be equal in damage to an overpowered elite like SoS then Anguish is actually very good. But it only makes sense to bring Anguish with a hex like Painful Bond.

Quote:

AoU on a hero is more acceptable because heroes have no sense of placement and no PvE skills.

AoU makes sense for a human rit too because spirits are meant to form a protective wall for your casters, not the other way round. With AoU spirits tank very well in HM.

Perfected Shadow · Feb 11, 2010, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

AoU makes sense for a human rit too because spirits are meant to form a protective wall for your casters, not the other way round.

Not when I play (mostly with pugs). I use summon spirits very often to avoid as much damage to the spirits as possible. That way the pugs become my meatshields on which I use lolVengeance every 15 or 30 seconds.

MasterSasori · Feb 12, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If Anguish, being just a normal skill, can be equal in damage to an overpowered elite like SoS then Anguish is actually very good. But it only makes sense to bring Anguish with a hex like Painful Bond.

It's hardly and equal. It's an equal for one spirit but has so many other drawbacks not to mention its in a totally different line. Anguish with Painful Hex is synergy but it doesn't mean its always going to attack the monster or the monster is not going to last long. Either way you'll need lots of hexes elsewhere because even with a 20/20 painful bond recharge is too slow to cater to anguish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

AoU makes sense for a human rit too because spirits are meant to form a protective wall for your casters, not the other way round. With AoU spirits tank very well in HM.

That's what MMs are for and most teams have one already. With the minion wall there is no need for SoS to play a second role. Bloodsong and SoS are fast enough to recast after they go down and they are high level. And with decent spawning, they will last long enough. Bloodsong and Vampirism already self healing anyway. So its essentially AoU for crappy communing spirits.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2010, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

It's hardly and equal. It's an equal for one spirit but has so many other drawbacks not to mention its in a totally different line. Anguish with Painful Hex is synergy but it doesn't mean its always going to attack the monster or the monster is not going to last long. Either way you'll need lots of hexes elsewhere because even with a 20/20 painful bond recharge is too slow to cater to anguish.

Since Painful Bond is an AoE hex with a 12s recharge that is usually not a problem. Bringing other hexes from your team is also not difficult.

Quote:

That's what MMs are for and most teams have one already. With the minion wall there is no need for SoS to play a second role.

When it comes to minions, the more the merrier. Minions are overpowered in PvE right now, not only do they deal good damage, they also provide good defense at the same time so minion skills serve a dual purpose. Just because you have a MM does not imply that SoS becomes useless. The best 3-heroes team HM builds make use of both, unless you are playing the SoS rit of course.

Quote:

Bloodsong and SoS are fast enough to recast after they go down and they are high level. And with decent spawning, they will last long enough. Bloodsong and Vampirism already self healing anyway. So its essentially AoU for crappy communing spirits.

Two spirits like Bloodsong and vampirism dont make an effective wall. Also monsters dont always target spirits. For one, spirits do not soak up hexes for you, necro minions do. Spirits also do not wall up their targets as well as necro minions do since they are immobile and ranged. This means, in general, they have a lower chance of being targeted than necro minions.

Think of them as ranged minions like fiends, with the help of the necro minion wall, they can attack more effectively and your casters now have 2 layers of wall protecting them in the toughest HM areas. This is also what makes spiritway very effective for HM.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Hero_Spiritway

MasterSasori · Feb 12, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

When it comes to minions, the more the merrier. Minions are overpowered in PvE right now, not only do they deal good damage, they also provide good defense at the same time so minion skills serve a dual purpose. Just because you have a MM does not imply that SoS becomes useless. The best 3-heroes team HM builds make use of both, unless you are playing the SoS rit of course.

You didn't see my post. I said that by secondary role, they don't need to tank not that they shouldn't be in a team. They don't need to do something that another member of the team can easily do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Two spirits like Bloodsong and vampirism dont make an effective wall. Also monsters dont always target spirits. For one, spirits do not soak up hexes for you, necro minions do. Spirits also do not wall up their targets as well as necro minions do since they are immobile and ranged. This means, in general, they have a lower chance of being targeted than necro minions.

When I wrote about longetivity I did not mean that spirits should function as a wall purpose. They only have more hp only to last longer in case a monster does get through the minion wall. You want the spirits to be a wall, but I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Think of them as ranged minions like fiends, with the help of the necro minion wall, they can attack more effectively and your casters now have 2 layers of wall protecting them in the toughest HM areas. This is also what makes spiritway very effective for HM.

If thats the case then why do you suggest them working as walls? Why make them into something that aren't as good at. That's my beef with AoU, it tries to turn spirits into something that isn't necessary and wastes a slot, not to mention its in a mediocre line. They don't need to function as a second line for your casters as the monsters should already be dead. If not its your offense that's the problem, not the defense.

AndroBubbles · Feb 14, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You want the spirits to be a wall, but I don't.

Agreed. I do not want my spirits functioning as a wall when they can pump out 100+ damage per second when used properly with painful bond.

Lord Chris Bravo · Feb 14, 2010, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

Agreed. I do not want my spirits functioning as a wall when they can pump out 100+ damage per second when used properly with painful bond.

I agree with the 100+ damage per second but in saying that wouldn't you want protection as well?

Whenever i use an SoS build i like to use them as a wall plus damage lol .... especially in Hard Mode

MasterSasori · Feb 14, 2010, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Chris Bravo

I agree with the 100+ damage per second but in saying that wouldn't you want protection as well?

Whenever i use an SoS build i like to use them as a wall plus damage lol .... especially in Hard Mode

That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer.

They do make a nice little wall for emergencies and can do a ok tanking, but that isn't the spirit's purpose. Spawning power is to increase durability, not make them into walls.

Lord Chris Bravo · Feb 15, 2010, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer.

They do make a nice little wall for emergencies and can do a ok tanking, but that isn't the spirit's purpose. Spawning power is to increase durability, not make them into walls.

Agreed i don't think i put it correctly .. what i meant to say is that it's usefull as a back-up as you so rightly stated.

When i use to do vanquishing without Discord, my spirits acted as tank very sucessfully when tackling small mobs that we were around all i had to was spam summon spirits whenever it recharged lol but i was used to my build so it was very easy to know where to succesfully place my spirits without them getting owned by the monsters.

I used shadowsong .. very useful when there is melee around because BAM ... blind them they can do jack haha

What do you think spirits purposes are?

The Drunkard · Feb 15, 2010, 12:15 AM // 00:15

I found spirits more useful as an AoE attracter than a wall. It's quite usefull since I can just teleport them around and prevent the rest of my team from getting pummeled by AoE.

Daesu · Feb 15, 2010, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer.

They do make a nice little wall for emergencies and can do a ok tanking, but that isn't the spirit's purpose. Spawning power is to increase durability, not make them into walls.

I meant that they can be used as a secondary wall. If you say spirit tanking isn't necessary because you already have necro minions then you are making an assumption that necro minions will always be there to wall monsters up for you.

Necro minions, although good, does not always suvive high damage aoe attacks for long and they rely on fresh corpses. Furthermore, minion bombers use certain skills to detonate their minions so they tend to die faster.

AoU is not a wasted slot as you seem to imply because monsters do attack spirits and spirits with AoU tend to last longer than spirits without. No matter what you think their purpose is suppose to be, spirits are still extremely durable with the right build without sacrificing damage. Why go for damage only when I can get both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

That should be the job of your minion wall. If your minions are dying that fast, then I don't think the spirits will be lasting much longer.

Spirits can last a lot longer than minions because of SP, AoU, and summon spirits.

MasterSasori · Feb 17, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I meant that they can be used as a secondary wall. If you say spirit tanking isn't necessary because you already have necro minions then you are making an assumption that necro minions will always be there to wall monsters up for you.

Necro minions, although good, does not always suvive high damage aoe attacks for long and they rely on fresh corpses. Furthermore, minion bombers use certain skills to detonate their minions so they tend to die faster.

AoU is not a wasted slot as you seem to imply because monsters do attack spirits and spirits with AoU tend to last longer than spirits without. No matter what you think their purpose is suppose to be, spirits are still extremely durable with the right build without sacrificing damage. Why go for damage only when I can get both?

I'm not interested in using a slot for something I don't need to. AoU is still good at low communing, but its the slot that I'm reluctant to give up.

Even if the minions die, its not as if the spirits will keel over without AoU. Besides summoning Bloodsong/SoS isn't difficult or time costly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Spirits can last a lot longer than minions because of SP, AoU, and summon spirits.

I'm referring to hero rits but if you are talking about human rits, then there is even a less of a reason to use AoU because of summon spirits. Besides you're going to have to fit AoU into a cramped bar where certain spells such as splinter or GDW are more important

Daesu · Feb 17, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I'm not interested in using a slot for something I don't need to. AoU is still good at low communing, but its the slot that I'm reluctant to give up.

Even if the minions die, its not as if the spirits will keel over without AoU. Besides summoning Bloodsong/SoS isn't difficult or time costly.

There are not many skills worth bringing in the channeling line to replace AoU. There is SoS, Splinter, BloodSong, Painful Bond, Spirit Siphon, I don't find AR to be effective in HM. That leaves 3 slots for a secondary attribute. If you are a human rit, you can easily fill them up with PvE skills, but if you are a hero rit then most SoS build would use skills from another attribute line, most typically communing for spirit spammers.

Anyway, take at look at this to illustrate what I am talking about:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Rt/a...Channeling_Rit

SoulKEEPER · Feb 18, 2010, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Why Rit pri.. because the different kinds of builds you can play. My spike builds in AB drove the Kuz nuts. And then maybe its because the rit is so much fun to play!

HigherMinion · Feb 18, 2010, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Armour of Unfeeling is quite necessary in areas like UW, where you may be asked to tank one side of Four Horsemen quest; although, I've not tested it with anything other than a Ritualist, I think the lack of extra health/armour will affect the outcome.

And yes, there's no real argument about it- spirits ARE minions. Immobile minions, unless you have Summon Spirits. They make a wall to protect the team and absorb damage. You have about 5-6 spirits on your bar, and 11 minions on your MM/MB; and you will overpower anything in your way.

Ancestor's Rage is pretty terrible in HM, don't use it. Nor Spirit Rift or anything that deals "lightning" damage.

MasterSasori · Feb 18, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There are not many skills worth bringing in the channeling line to replace AoU. There is SoS, Splinter, BloodSong, Painful Bond, Spirit Siphon, I don't find AR to be effective in HM. That leaves 3 slots for a secondary attribute. If you are a human rit, you can easily fill them up with PvE skills, but if you are a hero rit then most SoS build would use skills from another attribute line, most typically communing for spirit spammers.

Anyway, take at look at this to illustrate what I am talking about:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Rt/a...Channeling_Rit

You are right that AR sucks. I don't know why that's on the build recommendation.

However, I rather have that 3 extra slots dedicated to the SOS being a support healer using MBAS, Spirit Light, and Life. If you have to have communing, then a low 6 att points can get you a AoU but otherwise, communing is a waste other than Shadowsong which is pretty decent.

Anguish and Pain are overrated. They aren't bad but they aren't worth the heals that a SoS rit can give.

Humans can get away with GDW/Summon Spirits to fill two slots and perhaps a rez if pugging, Splinter weapon, or in some minor cases, low communing for AoU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Armour of Unfeeling is quite necessary in areas like UW, where you may be asked to tank one side of Four Horsemen quest...

And yes, there's no real argument about it- spirits ARE minions. Immobile minions, unless you have Summon Spirits. They make a wall to protect the team and absorb damage. You have about 5-6 spirits on your bar, and 11 minions on your MM/MB; and you will overpower anything in your way...

AoU is necessary for a small amount of areas like some UW and Forgewight; areas where Spirits need more than high lvl/spawning. But for the vast majority of HM, AoU isn't necessary unless you are having real problems with your MM or lack of corpses.

5-6 Spirits on the bar will help tank monsters, but that only is their secondary purpose. If you expect that you will be tanking, then AoU is more appropriate. However when dealing with humans, if the spirit is taking damage, the rit will simply summon it away.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You are right that AR sucks. I don't know why that's on the build recommendation.

However, I rather have that 3 extra slots dedicated to the SOS being a support healer using MBAS, Spirit Light, and Life. If you have to have communing, then a low 6 att points can get you a AoU but otherwise, communing is a waste other than Shadowsong which is pretty decent.

Putting into restoration is just one of the options. If you want to put into communing for a pure spirit spammer build, you can get more damage by raising it to 11+1 and 6+1 SP as recommended by the build.

I like Shadowsong too and since heroes cannot carry summon spirits, AoU is a decent choice for spirit wall protection. Pain and Anguish are not too bad either. At 12 Commuing, Pain deals 25 damage and Anguish deals 34 (due to hex) and they both synergize with Painful Bond which would add another 19 damage (14 channeling) to each of them.

MasterSasori · Feb 18, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Putting into restoration is just one of the options. If you want to put into communing for a pure spirit spammer build, you can get more damage by raising it to 11+1 and 6+1 SP as recommended by the build.

I like Shadowsong too and since heroes cannot carry summon spirits, AoU is a decent choice for spirit wall protection. Pain and Anguish are not too bad either. At 12 Commuing, Pain deals 25 damage and Anguish deals 34 (due to hex) and they both synergize with Painful Bond which would add another 19 damage (14 channeling) to each of them.

Whether or not you use communing is the opportunity cost of adding restoration to the rit. Rits have good restoration magic that can be runed, enough energy and time to use the heals, and have extra slots.

By adding communing you must take the heals elsewhere where restoration is likely not to be as good. Damage may not be as good either but that depends on what slots are freed up on another hero.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Whether or not you use communing is the opportunity cost of adding restoration to the rit. Rits have good restoration magic that can be runed, enough energy and time to use the heals, and have extra slots.

By adding communing you must take the heals elsewhere where restoration is likely not to be as good. Damage may not be as good either but that depends on what slots are freed up on another hero.

Restoration is the healing line and communing has the damage and protect. Saying that restoration is better than communing is like saying healing is better than damage. It depends on your other team build and the situation.

I may decide to bring my restoration heals on another hero with 14 to restoration rather than having that 3 restoration skills as a secondary attribute investment on my SoS hero.